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 Subject :Re:Composite armours.. 24-11-2011 12:05:32 
Damian
Trooper
Joined: 18-03-2011 20:55:28
Posts: 1
Location
Forum : General Banter
Topic : Composite armours

[quote]In some forums like the TankNet, images of knocked out M1 Abrams were posted - the side armour of the turret seems to consists of steel plates, maybe some kind of plastic was also used, but there are no ceramic tiles visible! Maybe they were removed or destroyed when the steel armour was destroyed.[/quote] This is only an outer layer of whole side composite armor array. There is no place on the inner backplate to mount these rods, so this means that these rods (to which are mounted on spirngs these 3 layers) are going through another array of layers. It is possible that whole visible array is composed this way. 3 layers with airgaps between, each layers is made from smaller layers (2 plates with some sort of reactive material between them). So this suggests that M1 armor is based on NERA design. [quote] Multiple steel layers The steel layers seem to be fixed on some kind of coil spring, the turret armour seems to be very thin [/quote] 1) Nobody knows from what these layers are made. 2) It is some kind of NERA array, and side turret armor is not thin, backplate is rather thick (~80mm probably), only outerplate is rather thin.
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 Subject :Re:What tank is this? Make a guess... 13-01-2011 16:19:48 
Chieftain900
Trooper
Joined: 09-03-2010 09:20:40
Posts: 8
Location: The Town that Time forgot
Forum : Guess the tank
Topic : What tank is this? Make a guess.

Duddrs It is alive and well at Bovington and could be a ruuner with a bit of work.
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 Subject :Re:always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?.. 17-12-2010 16:22:09 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : General Questions
Topic : always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?

thank you for he info
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skullas92
 Subject :Re:Re:The Challenger 2 is swapping to the German L55 Smoothbore.. 16-12-2010 07:32:46 
methos
Corporal
Joined: 26-06-2010 16:17:54
Posts: 42
Location
Forum : Myths and Misconseptions about A.F.V.s
Topic : The Challenger 2 is swapping to the German L55 Smoothbore

Somehow this looks like you are an apple-polisher.





[skullas92 15-12-2010 16:44:14]:

i do not think the L55 could compare to the britsh L30A1 the British build some of the best AFVS in the world suprior even to the germans or Amercians
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 Subject :Re:always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?.. 16-12-2010 07:17:00 
methos
Corporal
Joined: 26-06-2010 16:17:54
Posts: 42
Location
Forum : General Questions
Topic : always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?

Most articles of the NATO STANAG doesn't ban something. Several assault rifles use indigenous magazines, although there is a STANAG magazine, but most of them could be using a STANAG magazine. STANAG also doesn't limit special calibers to weapons or vehicles - there are British 120 mm rifled gun and two piece rounds and 120 mm smoothbore guns with single-piece ammunition. There are also different types of 105 mm guns and ammunition including recoiless one (which can't be used in tank guns of the L7 series).

There are some different points for STANAG, but they don't ban anything or prevent the usage of anything. Most of them are logistic reasons, some of them of tactical nature. Generally there is no point speaking for limiting the calibers which can be spotted on vehicles. Rifle ammunition like 7.62 x 51 mm or 5.56 x 45 mm is a standarized to improve the survivability of NATO soldiers; just imagine you as American would be fight side by side with a French company, you are surrounded by enemy forces - without STANAG, you wouldn't be able to continue fighting when your magazines are empty, since the French would have another catridge. If there wouldn't be any French causalities and they wouldn't have any other rifles, you would have to fight with a pistole. Since there is STANAG, you just would take some 5.56 x 45 mm rounds from them, and you could continue fighting.

Heavy vehicles, like infantry fighing vehicles or main battle tanks, aren't designed to reload on the battlefield. They must return to an ammunition depot or meet some kind of munition carrier vehicle. The tanks crew (or the crew of the IFV) wouldn't just open their hatches and reload their vehicles while being under fire.

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Last Edited On: 16-12-2010 07:30:45 By methos for the Reason
 Subject :Re:The Challenger 2 is swapping to the German L55 Smoothbore.. 15-12-2010 16:44:14 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Myths and Misconseptions about A.F.V.s
Topic : The Challenger 2 is swapping to the German L55 Smoothbore

i do not think the L55 could compare to the britsh L30A1 the British build some of the best AFVS in the world suprior even to the germans or Amercians
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skullas92
 Subject :the tiger sported biggest main gun.. 15-12-2010 16:40:39 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Myths and Misconseptions about A.F.V.s
Topic : the tiger sported biggest main gun

well many belive the tiger sported the biggest gun would it be a myth the Joseph Stalin 40 tank has a 122 gun and the amercian t-26 (the m-26) mounted 90ml gun so why do so many think tiger is king i know the stalin was built in the war and saw limited action in berlin and the t-26 took part in crossing the rhine (by the way seen actual t-26 it in new hampshire)

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skullas92
 Subject :Re:Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle.. 15-12-2010 16:24:57 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Small Arms
Topic : Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle

it does look like the p90 but still what i find amazing is how the Russians built it in the 60s even today it is strickling modern wish i had one but the Rusians have it locked up in some dusty cabniet well at least still have the century ak a bullpup ak rifle
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skullas92
 Subject :always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?.. 15-12-2010 15:59:44 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : General Questions
Topic : always wondered NATOS STAGNAGS for IFVS and the future?

in NATO members their are regulations that are followed such as stanrderd rifles round 7.62 by 51 or 5.56 by 45 or 120 main guns on many NATO MBTS.

Now one area little to no Stagnags appear present in NATOS IFVS for example the Amercian Bradley sports a 25 ml bushwacker well the British warrior sports a 30 ml Rarden gun and then we have Swedish CV 90 BOFORS 40ml main gun. then we have Germans, and French sport 20 ml guns.

why such wide range of calibers also if NATO adopted a STAGNAG what should they use?

my opnion is they should use 30 ml just right size and performace without sacrficing storage capciety

 

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skullas92
 Subject :the spanish are very very lazy.. 13-12-2010 18:07:16 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Movies and games inaccuracies and those which we loved
Topic : the spanish are very very lazy

well the spansih made  a moive thats suppose to be representing a german army unit in bosian conflcit acting as peackeepers. if you watch the moive (its on youtube in bits) it uses spanish armored vehciles and spanish rifles along with odd assortment of Amercian weapons used by the Bosins like the m60 lmg. funy though they get the french rifle right the famas. they do sue the BMR-600

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbkUvggIZ-w&translated=1

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skullas92
 Subject :Re:Hello, new here.. 13-12-2010 16:37:28 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Introductions
Topic : Hello, new here

hello
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skullas92
 Subject :Re:Re:Composite armours.. 10-12-2010 07:22:52 
methos
Corporal
Joined: 26-06-2010 16:17:54
Posts: 42
Location
Forum : General Banter
Topic : Composite armours

@ Burlington composite armour

I doubt that Burlington is exactly the same as the Chobham armour used in the Challenger 1. It is probably a little simpler, since the armour composition of Chobham was changed during the time. The M1 Abrams entered service some three years prior the Challenger 1, so it probably has a further developed varaint as the M1.


Edit: Here is some nice information about Burlington. Burligton was presented to a group of German soldiers and scientists (maybe as part of the FMBT programme?), the text claims that if Germany would incorporate Burlington (or another similar armour) into the Leopard 2, it would be first fielded in 1974. The Leo 2 entered service in 1979.


 

@ The usage of MEXAS in the Leopard 2 family

Take a look at the userlist on IDB-Deisenroth Engineering. Only some variants of the Leopard 2 use MEXAS. This models are operated/tested by Germany, Sweden, Greece, Spain and Switzerland. The Leopard 2 pictured there is the Leopard 2A6EX (as evaluated by Germany). Sweden has the Strv 122, which is the first production Leopard 2 which had increased hull protection (Denmark also use this upgrade, but the list is not up to date). Greece and Spain use a variant of the Leopard 2A6EX, therefore their Leopard 2s (E and HEL) are equipped with this applique armour.

The userlists also lacks some countries operating the Leopard 2A6 (e.g. the Netherlands & Portugal).

At the left there is a German Leopard 2A6. It is not equipped with MEXAS. The image on the right shows a Leopard 2A6EX in German camouflage pattern. Note the MEXAS applique armour layer on the hull and the increased roof protection.

Switzerland had developed an indigenious upgrade for their Pz 87 called "Werterhaltung". There the turret is reinforced with MEXAS-H.

Pz 87 equipped with 140 mm gun. Note the turret applique armour consisting of MEXAS.



[TankNutDave 09-12-2010 22:01:25]:

Very nice article Methos, I like it. Couple of things thou. First Burlington is Chobham armour. We found this out this year. My friend Bob Griffin who is ex tanker and has written a number of books about British Tanks managed to get some information unclassified for a book he is writing. About MEXAS on the A5 :) I’m trying to think how to put this across without wanting it to sound rude as you have worked very hard on this :p I accept what you are saying about the module on the turret, but I would like to see where you got that from please before I edit the Leo2 page on the site. However I do disagree with your list MEXAS is used on. It is used on the German Leopard 2A5. If you go to the manufacturers website - http://www.ibd-deisenroth-engineering.de/products-in-use.html It lists the vehicles by nations that use their products and it says German Leopard 2’s do use it :) I think we need to increase you up the ranks mate to a moderator perhaps on the forum :p I’ll send you an email.
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Last Edited On: 10-12-2010 07:50:28 By methos for the Reason
 Subject :Re:Composite armours.. 09-12-2010 22:01:25 
TankNutDave
Chieftain
Joined: 20-01-2010 02:41:08
Posts: 312
Location
Forum : General Banter
Topic : Composite armours

Very nice article Methos, I like it. Couple of things thou. First Burlington is Chobham armour. We found this out this year. My friend Bob Griffin who is ex tanker and has written a number of books about British Tanks managed to get some information unclassified for a book he is writing. About MEXAS on the A5 :) I’m trying to think how to put this across without wanting it to sound rude as you have worked very hard on this :p I accept what you are saying about the module on the turret, but I would like to see where you got that from please before I edit the Leo2 page on the site. However I do disagree with your list MEXAS is used on. It is used on the German Leopard 2A5. If you go to the manufacturers website - http://www.ibd-deisenroth-engineering.de/products-in-use.html It lists the vehicles by nations that use their products and it says German Leopard 2’s do use it :) I think we need to increase you up the ranks mate to a moderator perhaps on the forum :p I’ll send you an email.
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 Subject :Re:Composite armours.. 09-12-2010 15:13:04 
Admin_Bruce71
Warrant Officer Class 1
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 183
Location: My house on planet Earth
 
Forum : General Banter
Topic : Composite armours

Nice article methos, keep them coming!!
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 Subject :Composite armours.. 09-12-2010 13:08:43 
methos
Corporal
Joined: 26-06-2010 16:17:54
Posts: 42
Location
Forum : General Banter
Topic : Composite armours

Small composite armour compendium

This thread is including some information based on original image research.

Composite armour is used in most modern MBTs - there exist different types, different materials are used. There also are thousands of claims containing nothing but pure bullshit. Since I sometimes try to find some more information about the secret (or not secret) armours in the internet, I've found a lot of pictures of it. There are also some types of armour which can be considered to be a composite armour when using one definiton, but not with another.

 


BDD applique armour

The BDD applique armour package was developed and applied as part as an upgrade to T-55 and T-62 tanks, which were then called T-55M (or T-55AM) and T-62M. Some people claim that it is also used in the TR85M1 tank. This armour consistes of steel and a type of resin or plastic. A box (or at the turret front a "horseshoe") is made by welding further steel elements on the base armour. The inner space is then filled with thin, angled steel plates and the resin-like material.

The upgraded T-55AMs and T-62Ms are told to be better protected than some early T-72 models in some (but pretty large) areas.

  1. Glacis applique armour
  2. Turret applique "horseshoe" armour
  3. A more detailed look at the turret armour


Leopard 1A1A1 applique armour

When the earlier production models of the Leopard 1 were upgraded they were quipped with some kind of newly developed applique armour, which is allegdly made by Blohm & Voss. Although most sources call this armour simple spaced armour, I think, because of it's working mechanism it shoud be called a simple type of composite armour.

The armour consists of perforated steel plates coated in some type of rubber/lexan. This armour is mounted on shock-adsorber bolts on the thin base armour. When hit, the armour takes some use of the NERA effect. According to some posts in other forums, this armour should be protective against the BR-412, the main armour piercing 100 mm tank round of the earlier stages of the Cold War, which was later replaced by more effective APDS and APFSDS rounds.

  1. A Leopard 1A1A4 without applique armour. The shock-adsorbers in the frontal area are larger, to increase frontal protection.
  2. A closer look at a armour module showing the perforations in the steel plate.

Leopard 1A3 and 1A4 armour

 

The Leopard 1A3 and the later Leopard 1A4 tanks were eqipped with a more sophisticated welded turret. The turret incorporated a new type of armour. While most self-published sources simply claim that it would be protected by a simple type of spaced armour, it is as cited on Wikipedia, according to G. van Zelm & B. A. Fonck (two Dutch authors) a type of composite armour. It is told to be consisting of two spaced steel plates (the outer steel plate is high hardened) and a plastic filling (Polystyrol) between them. The German wikipedia article about composite armour may give a hint why it is often claimed to be spaced armour. The article differentiates between three generations of "Schottpanzerung" - the first genertation consists of spaced steel layers, the second has a plastic filling between them, the third generation is defined by the usage of rubber for making use of the NERA-effect.

The Leopard 1A3 frontal turret armour is told to offer twice as much protection as the former upgraded turret on the earlier models.

 

  1. A close-up view on the welding seams of a Leopard 1A3 turret
  2. The same image with some information superimposed - Note: the steel layers seem to be only 40 to 50 mm thick, but they are sloped vertically and horizontally.

Leopard 2 turret armour

Not much is known about the armour used in the Leopard 2 family. It is a multi-layered composite armour with Chobham-style ceramic matrix layer(s). But there are some nice images about the welding of the turret (i.e. the Greek company licence-producing them leaked), so the armour thickness is known. According to a Russian webpage (btvt.narod) the armour has a maximum thickness of 70 cm, while the German protal WaffenHQ claims that the actual thickness is 80 cm, as measured by German soliders & conscripts. Claimed materials inlcude tungsten, rubber, aluminum, titan, ceramic tiles, steel and plastic.

 

  1. A turret being welded. Note: the thick "boxes" will be filled with composite armour, while the rear includes two blow-out compartments
  2. Another turret being welded
  3. An Austrian Leopard 2A4 with "composite boxes" superimposed

Leopard 2A5 applique armour, the "Keilpanzerung"

Several Leopard 2s were upgraded following the "Mannheimer configuration" which was made by most of the Leopard 2-using countries. The most obvious change between the original slab-sided turret and the upgraded one is the installation of wedge-shaped armour modules on the front.

Contrary to what is claimed on TankNutDave.com this armour is not MEXAS, it is a type of armour developed by KMW. MEXAS is used in the Leopard 2A6EX, Strv 122, Leopard 2E, Leopard 2A5DK and Leopard 2HEL - it is not applid to the turret front, but to the frontal hull armour (and maybe it is used as roof armour).

The armour module consists of three layers of unknown material, which are told to be high-hardened. Between them is rubber, at least according to some forum posts in different forums. The armour module is using an unique working mechanism. It doesn't work like steel armour or ceramic armour (i.e. as passive non-spaced armour), instead it is told to be tearing and shearing the KE-penetrator (HEAT warheads will only be detonated prior reaching the main armour), which alledgly reduces impact energy of the penetrator by some 30 %.

A Greek Leopard 2 turret is told have been shot with as much as 30 APFSDS rounds, only one of them penetrated the armour through the former position of the EMES-15 gunner sight. Later this weak spot in the turret armour was fixed on all Leopard 2A5/6s.

  1. The multi-layered wedge-shaped add-on armour module. The walls are thin, but the effect is big
  2. A Leopard 2A5 turret without frontal armour modules and gun; the former position of the EMES-15 was reinforced. Note: the base armour is not perforated armour

M1 Abrams turret armour

While there is not much known about the armour of the Leopard 2, only a little more is known about the composite armour used in the M1 tank. At first, a Chobham-derivate known as Burlington was used, later depleted uranium was used to improve the protection.

In some forums like the TankNet, images of knocked out M1 Abrams were posted - the side armour of the turret seems to consists of steel plates, maybe some kind of plastic was also used, but there are no ceramic tiles visible! Maybe they were removed or destroyed when the steel armour was destroyed.

 

  1. Multiple steel layers
  2. The steel layers seem to be fixed on some kind of coil spring, the turret armour seems to be very thin

Merkava glacis armour

The Merkava tank family is based on a unique design - e.g. they mount the engine in the front. This is allegdly improving the protection, but I believe the engine is mounted in the front, because of the rear mounted exit; the Merkavas were designed to carry some infantrymen with them for engaging enemy anti-tank troops.

During watching some documentaries on YouTube, I found a video recording of the "ten greatest tanks of history" on discovery channel. The Merkava was ranked fourth in this docu. During one interview, the "engine hatch", i.e. the glacis armour was opened, to film the engine.The glacis armour seems to consist of three layers of differnt and unkown matierals. Maybe Israel used a similar technique as the Russian used in there T-64s and T-72s (some T-72s were captured during some wars).

 

  1. A bad quality screenshot, sharpened to show some more detail; there are three different coloured layers. The image was sharpened to increase the visibilty.
  2. Here the glacis armour is overlaid by lines showing the borders of the layers; all layers seem to have the same thickness.

 


T-55 Enigma applique armour

The "Enigma", modified T-54 and T-55, were used by Iraq during the Gulf and the Iraq wars. Large metal "boxes" were welded on the turret and glacis. The same type of armour was also used as side-skirts. Although there might be different versions, the modules inlcude some type of spaced composite armour.

The armour seems to consists of three types of material: Steel, rubber and some other material (a kind of plastic?).

 

  1. The turret of an Enigma tank. One armour module is fold up.
  2. A close-up view of the armour module; a metal section is cut out, three materials are visible: a white/grey material, a darker layer of rubber and a brown material.

 


 

T-72 armour

The T-72 is one of the earliest tanks using composite armour. The composition of this armour may have changed, but the thickness and the materials used in most versions are largely known. The first models used simple composite armour made of two steel layers and plastic or other materials (some models incorporated Kwartz).

  1. The cast steel turret of the T-72B (it actually matches with an desription of the T-72M armour, maybe my translator software made an error) includes a "pocket" which is filled with a composite armour array
  2. The armour module which is filled in the "pocket". It consists of 20 composite layers, each layer consits of 30 mm steel, 6 mm rubber and a 3 mm steel. 22 mm space is between each composite layer.
  3. This image shows the glacis armour of the PT-91M without ERA. It is exactly the same as the original T-72M which were reinforced with a 16 mm (32 mm LOS) steel layer.

 

To be expanded!

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 Subject :Re:Mobile observation post.. 08-12-2010 23:12:02 
M1A2AbramsV2SEP
Sergeant
Joined: 06-02-2010 01:31:17
Posts: 64
Location
Forum : General interesting AFV pictures
Topic : Mobile observation post

After digging around some i found a name to go along with this vehicle. The Israelis call it the Akrab (scorpion). They have also have another vehicle similar to it called the nagmapop.l
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 Subject :Re:Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle.. 08-12-2010 20:13:39 
Admin_Bruce71
Warrant Officer Class 1
Joined: 03-02-2010 23:35:31
Posts: 183
Location: My house on planet Earth
 
Forum : Small Arms
Topic : Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle

Is that an AK disguised as a P90, or a P90 disguised as an AK? lol
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 Subject :Re:Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle.. 08-12-2010 19:47:21 
skullas92
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 30-08-2010 15:45:16
Posts: 95
Location: USA
Forum : Small Arms
Topic : Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle

agree love to see how it perofromed thanks for intrest dave
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skullas92
 Subject :Re:Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle.. 05-12-2010 12:39:41 
TankNutDave
Chieftain
Joined: 20-01-2010 02:41:08
Posts: 312
Location
Forum : Small Arms
Topic : Korobov TKB-022 Russia 1960s future rifle

That so should have been on Goldeneye lol
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 Subject :Re:Hello, new here.. 04-12-2010 14:44:22 
TankNutDave
Chieftain
Joined: 20-01-2010 02:41:08
Posts: 312
Location
Forum : Introductions
Topic : Hello, new here

Welcome on board mate, you ex RAC?
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